Interview with Crime Writer Jeffery Deaver - Bonus Episode

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Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Jeffery Deaver on the Crime Cafe podcast.

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Amazingly, this week I managed to scrape up transcription show notes. I hope to continue doing this.

Debbi (01:02): Hi everyone. Today’s episode is kind of a special bonus episode. The podcast is between seasons but today’s guest is well worth squeezing in. This author has written more than 35 novels, three short story collections and a nonfiction law book. He is a former journalist, attorney and folk singer. That’s an awesome combination, in my book. He’s been nominated and granted numerous awards and he’s an international bestselling author. My guest today is Jeffery Deaver. Hi Jeffery. Thanks so much for being here today.

Jeffery (01:41): Hello, Debbi. Very happy to talk to you.

Debbi (01:43): Wonderful. So you worked in law. What kind of law did you practice?

Jeffery (01:52): Well, it’s funny. People know I write criminal books, so they say, well, Jeff, you must’ve been a criminal [lawyer], and I say I represented banks. You draw your own conclusions from that. I was a Wall Street lawyer and did represent banks as a matter of fact, did mostly a finance law. But you know, I’ve always wanted to be a writer and always wanted to write commercial fiction ever since I was a young boy. And so that was my career path, but I knew that writers are not progenies. They, they need to live life a little while. You know, Mozart, I’m sure, was composing very young and Jackson Pollock was spattering paint on his mother’s floor probably at a young age. But I knew I was going to have to work and make money doing other things and live life.

People know I write criminal books, so they say, well, Jeff, you must’ve been a criminal [lawyer], and I say I represented banks. You draw your own conclusions from that.

(02:46): And so I picked journalism first and then I decided to try law for a little while. And by the time I was in my thirties and I felt I was comfortable enough to begin writing popular fiction, I I quit those jobs and that was 30 years ago. I’ve been writing for 35 years, but writing full time for 30.

Debbi (03:07): It’s almost eerie the way your career path has been similar to mine. I used to practice law also. When I quit, it was so nice to do what I really wanted to do, which was to write.

Jeffery (03:21): Yeah.

Debbi (03:22): It’s a wonderful feeling.

Jeffery (03:24): Can I ask what, what type of law you practiced?

Debbi (03:27): I did different things. I started off with Social Security doing disability defense work, and then worked at a law firm, ended up in land use and zoning. But then from there went to EPA. I worked with the Office of General Counsel, which is a very interesting job.

Jeffery (03:48): I think it would be fascinating.

Debbi (03:50): It was fascinating. But unfortunately they moved the office to a place even farther from where I lived. I had to make a decision. So I decided to go into practice for myself for a while, which was extremely educational.

Jeffery (04:06): It was. You pick up a lot of stories for books, don’t you?

Debbi (04:09): Oh my gosh. Well yeah, I could go on, but I won’t. I want to talk about you. Yeah. You worked as a journalist also. In what ways do you think your work as a journalist and a lawyer affected your writing?

Jeffery (04:41): Both careers were extremely helpful. As a journalist, I learned how to write, and I went to the University of Missouri Journalism School and we could not graduate unless we could pass with a hundred percent score a test on the book, The Elements of Style by Strunk and E.B. White. And so I learned grammar, syntax, punctuation, style, cold. I learned to write in a very pedestrian style. I think of the great writers like David Foster Wallace, no longer with us, sadly. Annie Proulx, Cormac McCarthy, Saul Bellow. These are amazing stylists as they write. The words they put together are art in themselves, whatever they mean. But that’s not really appropriate for the type of writing that I want to do. Now, I was a poet for a while. I guess I still write poetry occasionally. I kind of know how to make a book have a lyrical tone to it, but that’s not appropriate. So I hearken back to my days in journalism when the sole goal of the written word was ease of communication between the author, the writer, the journalist, and the reader. So that’s what journalism taught me. Law taught me something that has stayed with me. It didn’t to me right away at the beginning of my writing career, but then I realized it and it’s it’s saved the bacon and it’s this.

I kind of know how to make a book have a lyrical tone to it, but that’s not appropriate. So I hearken back to my days in journalism when the sole goal of the written word was ease of communication between the author, the writer, the journalist, and the reader. So that’s what journalism taught me.

(06:06): Whatever we see in the TV, in the movie shows, there are very few surprises in legal confrontations, as you well know or a legal deal. I’m putting a business deal together. Everything’s planned out ahead of time. The trial is outlined, the witnesses are known. There may be a surprise witness, but the judge let’s the other side know and there may be a continuous. So what the law taught me was for my books, I plan all my books out ahead of time and I say, I didn’t do this at first. I sat down with an idea that I thought was a good one and banged out the book and a couple of them either won or were nominated for some awards, but they were kind of a struggle to write. I had I had to backtrack a lot, throw out a lot of prose I’d written, cause I didn’t know exactly where it was going.

(06:59): Well then I thought, wait a minute, why don’t I remember, remember what I did in law? Well, I’ll just plan the book out ahead of time as if it were a trial and I’ve done that ever since and it saved my day. Saved the day. I now outline extensively. Eight months it took me to do the outline for The Goodbye Man. My latest Colter Shaw book, the outline was about 140 pages long and it had every element of the plot, every introduction to the character, every departure of the character, all the clues were seeded in. And it was just a it’s a lifesaver. Anyone who’s watching and, or listening to this, you know, this, this, this podcast. Remember, you need to know where you’re going before you write a single word.

Debbi (07:50): I agree with you completely. It helps a lot to have that roadmap for where you’re going because it just saves you so much time in the long run. Let’s see. You were also a folk singer. Tell us a little about your time as a folk singer.

Jeffery (08:09): I was not a particularly good singer. I don’t have the voice for it. And I, I’m not a natural born musician. I was a competent guitarist, but I, I didn’t really care that much about the … Well, I love to perform. Let me put it that way. Well, what I really loved was, was writing songs because there’s nothing like the economy in writing and there’s nothing like putting words together in a way that is, you know, almost poetic, because songs are poems. They are, whether it’s rap or a traditional ballad or even popular music, it’s a, it’s a poem. It fits a form and the the words often, rhyme, they don’t necessarily rhyme, but they often do. And that’s kind of a challenge in itself. But, and I wrote a number of songs and some were recorded, but finally I forgot all about that aspect of my life.

I love to perform. Let me put it that way. Well, what I really loved was, was writing songs because there’s nothing like the economy in writing and there’s nothing like putting words together in a way that is, you know, almost poetic, because songs are poems.

(09:03): I don’t play anymore. I’ve got some, some arthritis. It’s not terrible, but I can’t play the guitar. A little painful to do that. So I gave that up. But I, I, I’ve always had in the back of my mind, God, I’d like to have an album. And so I wrote a book a few years ago called XO and you can look it up in your, in your bookstore or Amazon or wherever. XO as in hugs and kisses and it’s a stalker going after a young country, Western singer, sort of a Taylor Swift kind of person. And so what happens, what I say to myself, well, Jeff, you used to write songs, write an album to accompany the book, which I did. And I worked with a production team in Nashville and we recorded it. I wrote the songs, they’re very kind of Paul Simon, like they’re a couple of country Western songs in there. And some of the songs have clues as to what’s really going on in the plot. So it was a lot of fun to do.

I’ve always had in the back of my mind, God, I’d like to have an album. And so I wrote a book a few years ago called XO and you can look it up in your, in your bookstore or Amazon or wherever. XO as in hugs and kisses and it’s a stalker going after a young country, Western singer, sort of a Taylor Swift kind of person. And so what happens, what I say to myself, well, Jeff, you used to write songs, write an album to accompany the book, which I did.

Debbi (10:03): That’s awesome. That’s such a great idea. I love the way authors are incorporating music more in their brand, which is just fantastic.

Jeffery (10:11): If you’re listeners and viewers are interested, go to YouTube, type in Deaver, my last name, D, E ,A, V, E, R and then the words, “your shadow” in quotes. So it will pick that up. And that’s one of the music videos that was done from from my song and you just get it. And of course it’s kind of a creepy song if you think of it.

Debbi (10:42): Because it’s a creepy book.

Jeffery (10:42): Yes.

Debbi (10:42): Let’s see. How many series have you written at this point?

Jeffery (10:46): I’ve written four series, actually five series. Two very early in my career. One featured a character named Rune. R-U-N-E. That’s her nickname. The second was a series about a location scout who traveled around the country to find spots to make movies and he got involved with crimes and played amateur detective. Then of course, there’s the Lincoln Rhyme series starting with The Bone Collector. Then a series of four books, featuring Katherine Dance. She’s a, a body language detective in California. And now Colter Shaw.

Debbi (11:21): Uh huh? Well yeah. Tell us about Colter Shaw, who for some reason invoked images for me of a bounty Hunter version of Travis McGee.

Jeffery (11:34): Well, interesting you say that because guess one of the people who was an influence on me? Travis McGee from the great John D. Macdonald books. Colter Shaw travels around the country in his Winnebago, Travis McGee had a houseboat. Colter Shaw has a Winnebago and he looks for rewards that have been offered by the police, by prison authorities for a missing fugitive or by civilians. Maybe parents who cannot find their daughter who’s gone missing for a day or two under circumstances in which the police really don’t feel like they want to get involved or need to get involved. Maybe the child just run off and they don’t have the resources to track all of those down. But the father, mother maybe or some means offer a reward that Colter Shaw goes after. No, he’s not a bounty hunter as such.

Colter Shaw has a Winnebago and he looks for rewards that have been offered by the police, by prison authorities for a missing fugitive or by civilians. Maybe parents who cannot find their daughter who’s gone missing for a day or two under circumstances in which the police really don’t feel like they want to get involved or need to get involved.

(12:27): He’s not a bail enforcement agent. Because those are the criminals that bounty hunters go after. They’re pretty low level guys. They’re not very sophisticated. A lot of warrants skipping for minor drug offenses. Walter Shaw needs challenges in his life. And a reward, well for a lot of money represents a challenge because the police haven’t been able to solve it. The parents can’t find the child. And so what Colter Shaw does is he feels he needs to jump in the Winnebago and can’t sit at home anymore. He needs to be challenged. So he drives to the location where the fellow went missing and jumps on the case. Now he doesn’t really care about the reward that much. The reward to him is like, it’s like a red flag. Alerting him to a, the challenge and he even forgets to take the reward, but, and, if somebody can’t really pay it, he’ll say, Oh, give me half or pay me on easy terms.

And so what Colter Shaw does is he feels he needs to jump in the Winnebago and can’t sit at home anymore. He needs to be challenged. So he drives to the location where the fellow went missing and jumps on the case. Now he doesn’t really care about the reward that much. The reward to him is like, it’s like a red flag. Alerting him to a, the challenge and he even forgets to take the reward, and, if somebody can’t really pay it, he’ll say, Oh, give me half or pay me on easy terms.

Debbi (13:27): That’s great. What a great character. And I have to say, I started your book, your latest, The Goodbye Man and am enjoying it very much. It is so exciting. You open with such a great hook. Let’s see. What writers have inspired you most?

Jeffery (13:49): Well you mentioned John D. Macdonald. Travis McGee, certainly him. Ian Fleming. John Le Carre. Raymond Chandler, who as much as I love, I mean, he’s an institution. He was not really a plot driven author. [inaudible] But Marlowe and the characters he created are just stellar. You want to spend time with them. And forgive me if I mentioned Dashiell Hammett before. The Thin Man series and lean books. I like that. Economical books. I like literary fiction. Theodore Dreiser. I was never a big Hemingway fan, I must admit. But I liked Saul Bellow, one I mentioned earlier, one of favorite literary writers. Thomas Harris. Silence Of the Lambs was absolutely wonderful. And Lord of the Rings, I loved The Hobbit. I, there are some, some people may never buy a book again of mine, but I have to say, I have not read Harry Potter. I didn’t quite get into Harry Potter and it may be my Lord of the Rings bent, when it comes to fantasy, it’s hard to, hard to get over that.

Debbi (15:05): It’s hard to top Tolkien. Let’s see. What advice would you offer to someone who would like to write for a living?

Jeffery (15:14): I teach a course on writing. It’s a four-hour course. We obviously don’t have time to do that now, but what I will do is tell you, let’s see. Let me put it this way. I’ll do, I’ll say six things and I’m actually serious about this. And your your listeners may want to jot this down or, or record it. And remember, if you, if you want to be a commercial, a fiction writer, and the, the first thing is that you need to write in the genre that you read.

(15:53): Don’t think you’re going to make a million dollars writing about vampires if you don’t read vampire books. Mmm. Number two, you need to know where you’re going. You need to have the story planned out ahead of time. Joyce Carol Oates said, you can’t write your first sentence until you know what your last sentence is. And as I said, there are people who outline like me and there are people who don’t. I think it’s better to outline. I think it’s easier to outline. Mmm. The next rule is to rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, rewrite. I rewrite each book of mine 40 or 50 times before it goes to my publisher, and then I rewrite it significantly after that when I get their comments back. Mmm. Then I would say, don’t rush. Take your time. Many potentially very good authors do not end up being published or don’t end up with the success they deserve because they, they race through the book to get it to the agent or the publisher and it’s not ready to go.

One of Jeff’s Six “Rules for Writers”: Take your time. Many potentially very good authors do not end up being published or don’t end up with the success they deserve because they, they race through the book to get it to the agent or the publisher and it’s not ready to go. And when it’s rejected, they race to self-publish. Nothing wrong with that. But you should at least, exhaust every potential opportunity for traditional publishing before you self-publish.

(16:57): And when it’s rejected, they race to self-publish. Nothing wrong with that. But you should at least, exhaust every potential opportunity for traditional publishing before you self-publish. And number five, you have to remember that rejection is just a speed bump. It’s not a brick wall. You’re going to get rejected millions of times. Forget about it. I’m being facetious, but you’ll get rejected a lot. Just don’t worry about it. Keep going. And then the sixth thing I’m going to tell you is that you need to write a book that moves. You need to write a book in which you create living, breathing characters and every step of the way, they are confronted with questions that are not immediately answered and conflicts that are not immediately resolved until the end of the book or further along in the book. Of course the main plot, you’re not going to give the answer to who’s the killer until the very end, but there will be conflicts along the way and you need to resolve those and keep those questions going. Don’t answer them right away. End a chapter with a big question. Don’t answer it in the next chapter, answer it two or three chapters later, but make sure you answer all of them. So that in a nutshell is my four hour of course, and maybe I’m wasting time doing four hours. I could charge my students a lot less and we could go out for a beer afterwards if you just know those six elements.

Debbi (18:28): Well that sounds good. Let’s see. I don’t want to keep you too long cause I promised to keep this to 20 minutes, I think.

Jeffery (18:36): We have another, what we’ve got, we’ve got a few minutes left. I’ve got, this is my, for your listeners who don’t know, this is my book tour. It’s a satellite interview. So I do one interview after another and it’s great fun to do, but …

Debbi (18:48): Yeah, so okay. So I will take the next few minutes to just say do you have a favorite of the books you’ve written?

Jeffery (18:56): I do. My book is called Garden of Beasts. It’s a thriller. It’s set in Berlin in 1936 about a hitman, that the mob in New York who’s recruited by the the government, our U.S. Government to go over to Germany and assassinate an aide to Adolf Hitler who’s helping, helping him rearm the country. Now we knew then. It’s historically accurate. We knew in 1936, which is when the Berlin Olympics occurred, that Hitler was a bad guy and he was going to extend the Nazi regime and do very bad things. We didn’t know what, we didn’t know about the concentration camps and the final solution at that point, but we knew he had some evil things in mind. And so we the fact that we sent this man over to assassinate, that’s my fictional take on it, but we meet real characters in the book, including Hitler, Göring, and Goebbels and some of the more despicable characters.

On his book, Garden of Beasts: I will say that an elderly man came to one of my book signings and he was a Jew who escaped in 1936 just before Kristallnacht, which is when the Nazis really showed their true colors and began burning books and destroying synagogues and, and Jewish businesses. And he said it was the most accurate book about life in Berlin at that time that he had ever read. And I brought the horror of this insidious movement as it seeped its way into people’s lives to life in a way that he never had before. And that alone was better than any review I’d ever read and the sales figures. That just moved me very much. So that, in answer to your question, is my favorite book.

(19:58): And it’s won awards. It’s a book that took me two years to write and I will say that an elderly man came to one of my book signings and he was a Jew who escaped in 1936 just before Kristallnacht, which is when the Nazis really showed their true colors and began burning books and destroying synagogues and, and Jewish businesses. And he said it was the most accurate book about life in Berlin at that time that he had ever read. And I brought the horror of this insidious movement as it seeped its way into people’s lives to life in a way that he never had before. And that alone was better than any review I’d ever read and the sales figures. That just moved me very much. So that, in answer to your question, is my favorite book.

Debbi (20:49): That’s fantastic. That’s a great story. Is there anything else you’d like to say before we wrap up?

Jeffery (20:55): No, I’ve enjoyed our conversation, Debbi. Well, I will say this. So The Never Game was the first in the Colter Shaw series. The Goodbye Man starts one day after The Never Game ended. And carries on some of that story and the third book in the Colter Shaw series to be published fairly soon picks up exactly where The Goodbye Man ended and that will be out. I don’t have a title yet that will be out as I say soon, but next year we’ll have a new Lincoln Rhyme book. If you like The Bone Collector character, Lincoln Rhyme. He’ll be back. So that’s my shameless self promotion. Go to JeffreyDeaver.com. Come follow me on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, and on Instagram you’ll learn some of my favorite recipes as I do a cooking video or two.

Debbi (21:40): I love it. Got to check it out. Well thank you very much for being here. That’s awesome Jeffery and thanks so much. It was really nice to see you.

Jeffery (21:51): Really enjoyed our conversation, and I hope we do it again sometime soon.

Debbi (21:54): Thank you. Me, too. Stick with me for a moment cause I want to talk to you after just to for a bit. Just so you know, I also have a new book coming out. It’s called Damaged Goods. It’s a novella. And it introduces a new series protagonist Erica Jensen, who is a female Marine and unofficial investigator… Let’s put it that way. And in fact by the time this hits YouTube, it’ll be out within days. And when it gets on the podcast, it’ll already be out. So look for that. And finally, the podcast relies on your support to keep going. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, I hope you’ll check out my Patreon page where you will find all the perks available patrons from all levels of support, from a dollar up, even a dollar a month helps. So thank you for all your support, patrons. And thank you for listening. Stay safe, stay well, and keep reading.